Fugitivus Discussion Forum

That is disgusting. What the fuck do these people think they are doing?

I was going to say "taking back THEIR country, DUH!" but then I realized that I couldn't say that, not even in jest. I'm sure that's the sentiment, though.

That's really horrifying Mom. As weird as some of the people running ranges up here can be, every one I've gone to in AK has an iron-clad target policy - you are not allowed to shoot at a photo, caricature, or otherwise recognizable representation of an individual. I'm really, really disturbed and disgusted by the thought of people shooting at images of the president. That concept of practicing shooting at images of unpopular politicians is really, really scary, especially given the recent assassination attempt on Giffords in AZ. Just...WTF?

So, something I noticed in discussions of the AZ shooting of Rep. Giffords and the rally attendees is that there's a lot of outrage expressed about the AZ law allowing concealed carry without a permit. I found this really kind of interesting, since it seemed less relevant to the specific shooting than any number of other aspects of gun-related laws (for example, restrictions on who can purchase firearms or on the capacity of magazines that can be purchased by civilians). I hold a concealed carry permit, and the requirements that separate that from the ability to simply *purchase* a handgun from a dealer are largely financial, at least in my state.

To purchase a firearm from a dealer in AK, a customer is subject to a NICS check, performed when the dealer phones in to the state troopers and provides the potential customer's full name (and at least sometimes state ID or SSN, if it's a fairly common name) to make sure that there is no criminal history for the individual in the database. Purchaser must provide state-issued ID. If a dealer sells to someone who is not eligible to have a gun and does not call int he check, they get into a great deal of trouble (private-party sales are a whole-nother ball of wax).

To acquire a CCW permit in AK, one ponies up a few hundred bucks (beyond the price of firearm and ammo, which is usually considerable) to take a 20 hour course (4 hours of lecture on laws with a multiple choice test they walk you through at the end, 16 hours of range time, generally in two eight-hour chunks). If at the end of the 20 hours you pass the written multiple choice test on the general legalities of carry and qualify at the range (fairly low marksmanship standards, no time limit), you can turn in the course paper work and a set of fingerprints to the state troopers, who will check to make sure that you are not a criminal who left prints at a crime scene/committed crimes under another name and issue you a permit. From my understanding, talking to gun folks from other states, this is basically par for the course with getting a permit.

So basically, the big difference between purchasing a gun from a dealer/gun show and getting a CCW is having the cops run fingerprint check as well as a name/ID check, and demonstrating that you can hit the broad side of a barn under calm range conditions. And about 250 bucks for the class and fingerprint form. Carrying without a permit may be alarming from the standpoint of "holy shit, can this person actually hit their target in a life-and-death situation?", and it seems odd to be more concerned about the carry aspect than the acquisition aspect, but it's the permitless carry that I mostly see remarked on. Any thoughts?

Pardon me if I'm missing something important (I have zero familiarity with guns or gun law), but I don't see how banning concealed carry without a permit would make it any harder for a criminal to carry a concealed weapon. If someone detects them and stops them, then it wasn't very concealed, was it?

Restrictions on purchase and ownership of guns seem like a more effective (though still not very effective) deterrent.

Yeah, that's pretty much the size of it as I see it - that the legality of carrying concealed without a permit is pretty well irrelevant to the ability of a criminal to use a firearm in the commission of a crime. Especially in the case of pre-meditated murders/assassinations, where if someone is already planning to go out and illegally kill people, they are unlikely to be fazed by the realization that they are breaking the law on the way to the scene of the crime by not having a permit for the weapon.

However, despite this, the concealed carry aspect is still the thing I keep seeing brought up, and I'm wondering why that's become the boogeyman. Especially since, IIRC, it was already legal to open-carry without a permit before concealed carry was allowed.

I don't think requiring permits to carry a concealed weapon is going to have that much of a direct effect, but I do think it makes sense in that, if someone is discovered to be carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, that is crime enough already and you don't have to wait for them to actually commit one.

But, y'know, my direct experience in the matter is close to nil, so it's very possible my analysis is off.

I suppose, but it doesn't seem very efficient - you'd need a LEO to actually spot the weapon and check for permit status, which would be much more difficult with concealed carry than with open carry, which was already legal without a permit in AZ.

OTOH, Alaska has been a no-permit-required* state at least since I was in high school and probably longer, so that's definitely influencing my point of view on this, since the state of affairs that was causing so much comment was what's "normal" in my experience.



*While no permit is required, the permit class is kind of an "introduction to handguns" course covering laws, safety, operation of the firearm and instruction on how to shoot accurately offered by a professional instructor who is fanatic about range safety. I took the class because it seemed like the best and safest way to learn about handguns, and the permit or a permit-level background check is a required pre-requisite for most of the other firearms classes offered by the local instructor. I very rarely actually carry a firearm, and the same holds true for most of the other AK permit holders I know.