Fugitivus Discussion Forum

I'm having trouble distinguishing "I think society would be better of if ____ happened" statements from "____ should happen" statements, to be honest. Where does the distinction lie, in your mind?

I do not think there is anyone in here advocating that we ban their-opinion-of-poor $artists from producing $art or require writers to write in a certain way.

But, by and large, if there is something that in my opinion society would be better off with, then there is little functional difference between thinking that and thinking that that thing should happen, since by and large I would prefer to see society improved rather than otherwise. (And yes, definitions of "improved" are going to vary entirely from one person to the next, but.)

This doesn't mean I'm going to go out and force my ideals of societal improvement on anyone, but I don't think that makes me wrong for thinking they should (in my ideal fantasy world) happen.

Those seem similar to me, too. The distinction is between [either of those] and saying that a person should do something, which - to me - implies censure for not doing it.

As a minor aside, "should happen" and especially "should have happened" also sound to me like they're saying that there's something wrong - like, an injustice - about the thing not happening/having happened, as opposed to just making a comparison between the two states. (Those are only equivalent if, in your moral system, any way the world is less than perfect is an injustice.)

I took a long time to answer to this thread. I needed to think and also new posts happened.

I appreciate that you're passionate about writing, Hex. I know that learning new things is satisfying and that improving one's skills feels great.

I would just like to find out if there can ever be a baseline expectation for communication that is not exclusive to at least some groups of disenfranchised people.

If the basic purpose of literature is to communicate something to a target demographic, then I don't think there is any way to fail that purpose unless you're speaking in a language that you made up, which does take some effort.

If Stephenie Meyers wasn't aware that rules of communication existed, I would still like to pose the question: Well, why didn't she know? Why wasn't she aware? I'm incredibly reluctant to accept that "pure laziness" is a thing that exists.

On a more personal note, it makes me think about classist distinctions in internet communities, particularly "noobs" and "literates". For a long time I was extremely prejudiced against "noobs" (people who can't type well or type with shorthand and as a result are stereotyped as being belligerent and unintelligible) until I met a friend of mine whose typing skills mirrored that of "noobs", because she was dyslexic.

It seemed like "noobs" had to form their own communities because they were ostracized by any place that had higher standards. So if "noobs" can understand one another, roleplay with each other, share fanfiction with each other, then who are we to judge the way they communicate?

Stressing any sort of standards for communication, to me, is too strongly linked to ableism for me to not question it. I think about what little I know about the history of ableism against people who are deaf, and people who are autistic, and I think about the little paralyzed girl who communicated by blinking whose parents decided, without asking her, to terminate her life, when I hear arguments about keeping standards of communication.

We're certainly not in any danger of the English language, as we know it, simply "falling apart" or "collapsing", because it still serves its purpose.

I'm not sure where this line of thinking goes, or what the world would actually look like if we were more lax about rules of communication, but I want to continue thinking about it. As long as there's a baseline expectation for ANYTHING, there are people who are going to be left out- that's what I think. I know I've watched other people, and felt myself, continually lower their standards, and then fiercely defend their new standards just because they're sore they had to lower them to begin with.

Personally, I am not out to enforce baseline standards of any kind. I find some kinds of writing painful to pick through, but I have neither the power nor the inclination to ban them. I just want people to write thoughtfully. Those who have editors would benefit from listening to them; from everyone else, all I ask is that if they are writing for an audience, they think about that audience and choose their words with care. And I have no particular expectation that this request will be granted. But I cling to my ability to point out where I believe it has not, and more generally to discuss the shortcomings of a work as well as its merits.

Okay, I think I hear what you're saying. I don't think I would ever trust myself to be able to detect thoughtlessness over something like, writing that forgot itself because of a mood swing. That's a personal thing and why I make so many gosh darn edits.

In a small sample size, yes, it would be hard to make the call. But in a full-length published novel that exhibits thoughtlessness on other levels (self-contradictory characterization, glowing portrayal of horrifying behaviours), I think it's safe to say that Meyer's occasionally muddled syntax owes something to indifference.

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