Fugitivus Discussion Forum

I have no problems with that. I do in fact have the power to take this discussion or part of it to high-noon, but I'd feel a little uncomfortable just moving stuff. I haven't been very active here and not really up to date on modding policies. I suppose I could copy part of this thread to high-noon. Let me know which.

For whatever my opinion is worth, I'd support copying the relevant parts of the discussion to High Noon and linking from here to there and vice versa.

seconded

Ok so I moved it here, bur failed to leave copies. I just couldn't find the option for it and I am pretty sure this forum software has that option. If anyone has any ideas I am all ears.

To get back on the "let's agree to disagree", I really didn't mean that either in a negative or positive way, but merely used it to indicate that I do not feel that further discussion on this topic will be in any way productive for any side. I meant it as stating what I believe is a fact, not as an indication of willful ignorance. I don't mind continuing the discussion, but I also don't mind putting a stop to it. I really fear that if I stated my full opinion that a) no one here would agree and b) would merely result in a potential flame-war. I don't mind a, but I do mind b.

I'd like to continue the discussion, although I suspect we'll end up going in circles if we don't get both sides full opinions. I can be a little blunt but shall endeavor to not flame anyone, particularly on these forums. If a flame war happens you could always lock the thread, or lock the thread pending the opinion of a less involved mod, or whatever (why yes, yes I am back-seat modding >.>;).

I do feel that having a moderator on this forum denying the legitimacy of a particular privilege is a problem. I will, however, do my best not to stray into flame territory while discussing the matter.

I fully intend to stay away from flaming if I can. I know I tend to be a nuker, but I'll try.

I just wanted to say that the problem with gender is not that the categories exist. It's that we try to assign roles and behaviors to gender. Roles and behaviors are themselves genderless. Gender is something deeper. I don't think you can take your own genderlessness and say that everyone should/could be that way. I know I'm a woman in a way that goes beyond socialization- and I know this because if I could identify as androgynous, then I certainly would. I admire androgyny.

The more I think about this, the more I find gender itself to be genderless. It seems to be more like something your brain identifies, the way it recognizes that its body has a hand or toes. I'm not sure how well I'm articulating myself, but it's like this- just because our world culture has separated gender into different behaviors and roles, and assigned one side of the binary a "lesser than" status, doesn't mean the concept of gender itself is inherently flawed.

I can't be the one to lock the thread, as it involves me. That would be abuse of mod privileges and I am against it, so should it get out of hand and anyone wishes to appeal to a mod I ask you to pick another mod. I shall also endeavor not to flame or insult or disrespect the right of people to have an opinion, however much I might disagree with said opinion.

Ok here it goes:

I am disturbed by what I feel is implied. I feel that from you last post where you ask me if I thought you were less of a woman because of a penis, that it is implied that things such as menstruation, pregnancy, uterine and cervical problems and problems with the ovaries that can arise, don't matter all that much in recognizing anyone as female. To me these are the only experiences that make me feel actually female. These are experiences that by definition a trans-women can't have (yet). The other stuff that always reminds me I am female is the conditioning with which I have been broad up. Though anyone who has been broad up as male from birth will have the same conditioning, they will however not be the target of it. And by "it" I mean the constant reminder that you are somehow less worthy because you are not male.

I am also a little disturbed that "cis-gendered" people, as you call us, are killing, raping and firing trans-people. I know that trans-people are in danger of becoming the target of a hate-crime every day of their lives and I absolutely think that is despicable. The situation of living in fear is however not unfamiliar to people who were assigned female at birth. It is not known as a hate-crime, though it should be, but fab women are at risk of rape, murder and being fired for being women as well. So I would like to know in what way fab women are privileged over trans-people in that way?

Also the perpetrators of these crimes are largely men assigned male at birth. Though it wouldn't surprise me if there are also female perpetrators, because bigotry is frequently internalized by a lot of people who are also the target of it. Our enemies and the dangers and discrimination we live with seem to be the same, though I do know that I am privileged over women of color, women with a handicap, queer women etc. It may also be possible that as an fab I am privileged over trans-women. I am not sure about this. As a white woman the chances of that are high.

Also this is beginning to sound like the oppression Olympics as in "who has it worst", which doesn't matter because no bigotry is acceptable; so I am continuing on to another train of thought.

To be trully free and to take away a major tool of the patriarchy I do believe we need to abolish gender. Gender is a binary system that served no purpose other than to judge and control and exclude people. Sex is the proper term to refer to certain physical characteristics and that people have decided to misuse it as to represent certain acts between people does not mean the word isn't accurate. There are many worst that have more than one meaning and I don't see the other meaning of the word "sex" a reason to stop using it for what it was originally intended.

Gender is used to dictate what people may and may not do, wear; how people may or may not walk, talk, behave, etc. I find the whole concept oppressive. And being able to choose one out of two options really isn't much of a choice at all. It means you either choose one set of characteristics or another. You may not choose from both columns and why should there be only two columns to begin with?

You can, and there aren't.

I think there's a big difference between seeing a problem with the gender binary as conceived of in mainstream society and wanting to abolish gender entirely as a concept. The former is fine by me, because what mainstream society does with the gender binary is pretty fucked up. The latter erases the experiences of trans and genderqueer people who see gender identity and gender expression as integral to their lives.

I also think you're exhibiting a lot of cis privilege when you start talking about how disturbed you are that sex doesn't define gender.

Even though cis women are also fired from their jobs and raped and harassed, they also have an 'accepted' place in society. That is, although their status is 'less than', they are at least considered a 'normal' facet of society. I believe that the hatred and violence directed against trans people is more likely to occur, more frequent, more virulent. I don't meant to do the Oppression Olympics either, but in the case of cis women it's mostly cis men oppressing them, whereas with trans people it's cis people of both genders who are doing the oppressing.

I think your experience of being female is entirely subjective. I would have to counter your experience with my own: Even as a cis person I never once felt that bleeding or having a vagina was central to my womanhood. There's a difference between how the world treats you and identifies you because of these things, and how you feel about yourself. Sometimes the manipulation of outside forces is so insidious that you can't even tell the difference between how you identify yourself and how others identify you, but the distinction still exists.

If erasing all differences is the answer to abolishing patriarchy, perhaps we should all get surgery so that there is no sex, either. I really don't see why sex is a valid variation between humans and gender is not. The point of social justice activism is not to erase differences, but to increase acceptance of and valuing of differences.