Fugitivus Discussion Forum

TW for violence, guns

OK, I know Michael Moore has been a sore topic lately, but I was a big fan of Bowling for Columbine, and I am a big Rachel Maddow fan. (She is the one who, incidentally, called him out on the Assange Sady #mooreandme thing.) Anyway, he was on her show tonight talking about guns, and he said that, in Canada, if you are applying to have a gun, it's a long process that includes getting permission from your spouse or ex-spouse! I find that really, really interesting.

I didn't understand at first, but then it clicked for me- it's to keep guns out of the hands of people who are abusive toward their spouses.

I don't know, though, any abusive asswipe worth hir salt can just bully permission out of someone.

That does sound really interesting, Mom. My mind immediately went to the "oh noez, what if a woman is trying to protect herself from her evil estranged/ex husband stalker!" but that's vanishingly rare subset of gun people, vastly outweighed by abusive spouses/ex-spouses who use guns to murder, so that actually sounds pretty good. There are some states where a gun owner's guns can be (at least temporarily, I don't know if any do permanently) confiscated if their spouse/domestic partner swears out a restraining order against them. Sadly, this mostly leads to gun culture as a whole massively villifying women as either shills for the Brady campaign or potential gun-stealers, rather than leading gun people to band together to denounce domestic violence. There's a tendency in the gun culture I've encountered to frame guns as a woman's best friend against stranger rape/home invasion, but a total refusal to discuss that women are way more likely to be killed by their sexual partners, and are more often killed by guns in that situation than they are able to bring themselves to shoot their spouse/partner.

I live in Alaska, where guns are pretty much omnipresent, and I do own and shoot guns. I have discovered first-hand that a lot of the assertions made by pro-gun lobbyists and activists are unrealistic (take "An armed society is a polite society" - I live in a state where there is no permit required to carry a handgun, open or concealed. People are still rude, because, as a friend of mine pointed out, "aggravated dickery is not recognized by the courts as a shooting offense". Also, a lot of gun people up here really do not like virulently loathe women. Some of the most virulent sexism I have personally encountered has been at ranges and gun shows.

Umm, I don't want to start a gun argument, or be all "Ok, so I'm a gun person, but not one of *those* gun people, so if the mods would prefer, I'll shut up about gun stuff/ delete the post. I have really, really conflicted feelings about firearms in society that I'm willing to discuss, but not if it makes anyone feel unsafe.

Huh. I'm Canadian, and I didn't know that about gun ownership! Possibly because I'm Canadian, and my interest in gun ownership is low. So other than a vague notion that it is easy in America and difficult up here in the frozen north, I have no clue about the particulars.

Thanks Tevarre, I edited the title and first post. Hope that's what you had in mind.

You all have covered what had crossed my mind. The statement he made about getting permission from a spouse or ex-spouse immediately reflexively made me bristle, but I thought of all of the cases (TW for violence) that abusive spouses (usually cis-males) have come and shot their exes (usually cis-females). Even after restraining orders. And, I know the pro-gun lobby meme of protecting oneself with a gun is generally a complete myth.

I really didn't like that interview personally. I don't like how he distorts facts. I mean, he talks about total gun murders between the countries, without percentages of population. Canada has the population of California. There's a major difference in population. Also, it's not necessarily the gun restrictions that cause us to have lower gun deaths - the simple fact that most guns in Canada are long arms and other hunting accessories alone can account for that. It was that way before the recently (around 2000) implemented restrictions.

I like him and all, but I don't like seeing the facts so obviously distorted.

I think you make some really good points, Lady Jess. Causality can be really hard to determine in something as multifactorial as gun violence. Not just Michael Moore, but many sources on the issue disagree on how to present and interpret the same numbers.

Thank you for the official mod input, Tevarre. I'm sorry I didn't think to add a TW to my post, but since the thread is now marked, I guess that's covered.

Anyhow, I actually have a really interesting book called Gun Show Nation: Gun Culture and American Democracy by Joan Burbick. It's a really interesting book - the author, a woman who doesn't explicitly express terribly strong feelings on guns/ gun control one way or the other travels through 8 different states and a number of "gun culture" events (including gun shows, NRA speeches, cowboy-style shooting exhibitions and so forth) observing people's behavior and interviewing anyone who is willing to talk to her, as well as including some discussion of gun-related laws (and crimes) in various parts of the U.S. As a woman who is, albeit peripherally, involved in local gun culture (by which I mean I go to gun stores to buy ammo and shoot at ranges with environmental protections and safety regs, rather than in my yard/highway-side gravel pits/other really ill-advised locations with hand loaded rounds), it was both intensely depressing and kind of a relief to see that the obnoxious misogynistic bullshit I encountered on a regular basis was not just me/my local community. Her 10th Chpater "Gun-grabbing Wives" really provides a lot of info on the scary overlap between gun culture and the MRA movement, though I don't recall if she uses the term "MRA" at any point (I'm flipping through it now).

I was surprised to see how much gun culture there was at my hospital rotation site. Every attending physician I have had owns multiple guns and talks about them frequently. Even the more progressive seeming ones think gun control measures like serial numbers on bullets and semi-automatic restrictions are horrible ideas bordering on conspiracy. One of the attendings I had regularly shoots fully automatics in full SWAT gear. One of the residents talks about militias taking over our government as a good thing, and as his interpretation of the intent of the 2nd amendment. Probably the most disturbing thing I have heard is the descriptions of Obama targets readily available at shooting ranges.