Fugitivus Discussion Forum

Hmm, I was just thinking about this guy this morning on my way to work, actually. My high school history teacher was a creepy condescending jackass who had a tendency to push boundaries a little inappropriately especially given that he was an adult man working from a position of authority with teenage girls. We were a co-ed school, but he only did the obnoxious stuff with female students. For a while his classroom was the library (we were a small, crowded school), and at one point while a friend of mine and I were studying in there alone after school, he walked by and dropped a handful of chocolate on the table with the comment "sweets for the sweets". Creepy. He had a tendency to talk down to female students, but give us A's on almost everything, regardless of quality, apparently because he figured we were all dumb as rocks and deserved credit for trying. As someone who was a really good student who consistently got really high grades, I didn't notice this at first, until several of us (male and female) got together to discuss our classes and compared our graded papers from his class. What I had noticed was his tendency to condescend when girls asked questions in his class (which drove me batshit, I asked for clarification because he either spoke in generalities so vague as to be meaningless or used really inaccurate analogies that obscured more than they clarified), leading me to repeatedly challenge his presentation of the facts in lecture (I dread running across a student like me now that I teach. The fear keeps me really motivated to prep my lectures well). He'd engage with boys who did the same thing, but had a tendency to brush me off with non-answers. The way this ties into boundaries is that at one point when I challenged him for the third time in ten minutes in an after-class discussion between him and a few students, he tried to give me a little side-hug and said something about how I "sure was argumentative". SO NOT APPROPRIATE on several levels. So I brushed his arm away as I stepped back and snapped "don't touch me" (admittedly this was my default response to any personal contact at that age, which was pretty widely known in a school that small, at least among the students). But I still get annoyed just remembering that creepy boundary-breaching addition to the constant condescension. And it did contribute to shutting me up - I gave up on getting him to take me seriously and started wearing my sunglasses to class so I could sleep sitting up on the couch in the classroom without being too obtrusive about it.

...worlds of not okay.

What the holy fuck, Isabel. Oh my god. I am so glad I never had a teacher like that. I've had a few bad ones, but most of the ones I had trouble with were female teachers, and the male ones didn't do anything that seemed creepy or sexist, just really mean. I had a male teacher who would get on my case for being late to class and not doing the proper assignments, and he said once, "This isn't a game!" and I replied that it wasn't a game for me, either, and he kind of just went quiet, not sure how to respond to that. I mean I had lots of issues when I had moved to that junior high school. I just didn't know how to organize myself at all, and had no idea where exactly to go and when, or what to do, and he mistook my confusion and issues as me just not giving a damn, which has been a consistent thing my ENTIRE LIFE up to and including the current times- actually this is pretty off-topic, SO.

I had a first grade teacher who never wanted his students to hug him because he was afraid of looking like a pedophile. >.> That's sort of the reverse problem. He didn't actually use the word "pedophile" but he said something about "what people will think" or "getting in trouble" so by the time I knew what a pedophile was I had figured it out.

Isabel, that is not cool. It's a good thing you reacted the way you did. You're allowed to have boundaries, and if that comes across to people as being mean, that is their problem. My husband said that once, "People will think you're a b*tch," and I told him I'm fine with that. (I believe since then, he's retracted that statement :p) Once you stop caring so much how other people view you, you're finally free to be yourself. I'm slowly but surely learning that. And I'm with Eirwyn, I'm glad I didn't have a creepy teacher like that.

I was speaking to one of my Navy guy friends about creepy-thrift-store-guy via emailz. Thought I'd share it with you; I've responded already, but at times I feel I get caught up in the "Oh man, at least they're trying to see my point of view!" rather then what they're really saying. Check it:

C: "As for the flirting guy thing, Is that upsetting? Like, did you tell him to stop or that you were married and he kept doing it? I'll be blunt here, if you weren't married to (your husband), I'd be flirting with you too. It doesn't mean you're a sexual object. It means that you're a good looking girl who's into nerdy stuff. Unfortunately, the things that make people friends are also the things that make them attracted to each other. I definitely have a list of social and mental attributes that come first when I flirt with a girl. Is she into DnD? Does she like anime? Can she flank a squad of space marines with assault weapons? Among other things. (your husband) can do those things, and he's my friend. If (your husband) was a girl, I would have flirted around a bit and probably asked her out on a date. Depending on a number of other factors. Personally, I like being flirted with and can't wrap my head around it being a bad thing. I have a number of girl friends at home that I occasionally practice flirting with. I think it's fun. But if there are warning bells, and you've told the guy to back off you're not interested, and he wont let up, well, you ARE taking martial arts "

Thoughts, feelings? How would you respond, as a friend to a friend?

I have a friend who has a tendency to say socially inappropriate stuff, unaware that it is inappropriate. He's asked me to let him know when he does that, because he wants to avoid making people uncomfortable with his lack of social-reading-skills. So I'm going to pretend that guy is that friend of mine, with that understanding in my response.

"Dude. Boundary issues. One, I'm going to forget about the whole friends and sex objects are interchangeable thing, because while I'll grant you that it's great to date someone you can be and are friends with, its a little weird to imply that all of your friends are viewed as potential hump-buddies, barring other peoples prior claims on them or incompatible genitalia for your mutual preferences. That comes across as a little creepy. Two, flirty dude was upsetting precisely because he ignored the social cues that you've already indicated are broadly understood - like being married or being uninterested being equal to being off-limits for further flirting. Pushing with the sexually suggestive crap when I've indicated (in a polite, non-explicit, but widely understood fashion) that it's not gonna get him anywhere and I don't find it funny or charming is just obnoxious or at best socially clueless. The super-defensive response as opposed to an "oh, I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable, I didn't mean anything by it, but I won't do it again" just added further weight to the "he's a jackass" side of the scales."

As for my boundaries and "bitchiness", I was sufficiently privilieged in my situation that I could enforce my boundaries physically and bitchily with my peers without terrible consequences (heavily /dangerously violent retaliation after school for example, or suspension/expulsion - students pretty much never went to the teachers with our disputes). So when I had the inevitable junior high boundary violation of a larger male classmate invading my space and putting his arms around me and refusing to stop touching me when I demanded that he do so, I retaliated physically in a way that was funny to onlookers and a little embarrassing to him. Word got around (it was a small school) and I really never had fellow students violating my physical boundaries in public for the rest of my time there (it was a 7-12 school, so I was there until high school graduation). I've been really lucky in that I've never been "punished" for "bitchiness" in anyway that was meaningful to me - the people who ostracized me or spread rumors about me were people I didn't know or didn't like even before that occurred, and I spent most of my adolescence (in retrospect) cycling between manic feelings of invulnerability and depressive self-destructive moods so I never had much fear of the occasional physical altercations with larger people that occurred (mostly shoving matches quickly broken up by onlookers). I know a lot of women weren't so lucky.

Edited for clarification

^Hm, that is a very good point, and something I forgot about entirely. In fact, feel like I was blaming in my earlier post...You are lucky to have been able to do that. Just like in my position now, I'm able to talk about these things and be so open with my friends. A few years ago I would not have been able to do this. So, I apologize, I came off a little accusing there.

I was very happy overall with his response, giving me the impression that he is open to my feminist ideas. That is the best I could hope for so far. That part I quoted made me think "Wow, I wish he could see this," But with the rape culture we all grew up in, I can't totally blame him. All I can do is continue to be his friend, even if he's never completely on board for what I believe. Maybe my comments over time will make him think, who knows?

Yeah, there are some situations where "bitchiness" is policed a lot more harshly, and people require you to "care what they think about you" by engaging in long-term, grinding strategies of harassment and bullying that escalate if you don't appease and pacify. Or "bitchiness" may be punished by authority figures while your tormentors are seen as model workers/students/residents/what-have-you because they are better at social manipulation. Or "bitchiness" may be met by outright and hard-core violence by people who outnumber you or are way "out of your weight class", as the boxing saying goes. I used to get pretty angry and judgy towards women and girls who wouldn't stand up and fight back and damn the consequences when I was in high school, and it took me a long while to realize that it isn't always a viable option for everyone. There's actually a few good posts at kateharding.net and shakesville on street harassment where the comment threads start to break this stuff down - why "just be bitchy" or "just don't look like a victim" isn't actually helpful or accurate advice across the board.

I hope that didn't come off as a lecture - I'm mostly trying to clarify my above point because this whole thing about situational privilege and the policing of acceptable female rebellion is something that I find really interesting - it's kind of another way to turn people who should be working for each other against one another, you know?

^ By all means. I need it still sometimes; I know about victim blaming and everything, yet there are still some times I catch myself thinking/saying something along those lines. Plus, thank you very much for the insight to the response from my friend. Seems I'll have work to, but at least I'm starting the conversation now.



Yes, I thought so too. I wonder if I were to talk to those girls how they would really feel about being flirted with.

Oh, Isabel, I had a government teacher who used to say "Now to hear from the BROAD point of view" every time I raised my hand. I had teachers remark on my boobs (big) as early as middle school. I had another teacher tell me if I was older he'd marry me. Sigh.

Nalina, I don't know what to say about your friend's response. I think it is creepy to respond that anyone who fits under a certain umbrella has to put up with being hit on. There is being attracted to someone who has mutual interests, and then there is a blanket approach to an entire group (read: women) as being potential flirt victims, as opposed to friends.

^ This is true. It gave me a little ick feeling in the pit of my stomach when he said that. I've already responded to him, but I figured this was related to the topic. Just something to discuss.

I am sorry your teachers treated you that way, Mom. How completely out of line!! That is infuriating. And very sad